1) To Greg: The reason there were few comments on your initial post on Rambam is because the discussion devolves depressingly quickly into over-confident assertions along the lines of "There is no possible healthy interaction between boys and girls. Period." or similar tripe in which the commentor confuses his confidence in dopey ideas promulgated by 20th century North American chasidim and hastily adopted by religiously insecure Litvacks with there being some sort of factual merit to the argument. Yeesh. Do you really want to encourage that sort of nonsense?
2) To DovBear: Dude, the fundamental principle of all economic theory is that people, as a group, buy less of any given good when this good is more expensive. That rule has been observed over and over again; is true for doughnuts, hand grenades, and employees; is beyond question by both serious and un-serious economists, and represents the fundamental reason why unemployment rises when the minimum wage is raised. You can call that selfishness if you want, but it represents an indisputable segment of human nature, and pretending that it can be legislated away is likely to be as successful as outlawing cancer, or decreeing that fried chicken not make people fat. Id est, not very.
The above was not the original intent of this post. I had wanted to note that on the way to the salt mines this morning, the radio featured two consecutive remakes of songs that weren't terribly memorable in their original form ("Killing Me Softly," and some other mindless dirge, the chorus to which runs something like "So We'll Never Survive, Unless We Go a Little Crazy"). Taken together, they made me wonder just how culturally exhausted we are, that we have nothing at all new to say any more.
Much like this post, regrettably.
Yeeshily,
- Moishe Potemkin
Posted by MoisheP at January 5, 2006 09:17 PM | TrackBackWell I had no way of knowing that in advance. ;)
It's interesting because I think comments like that might actually prove instructive to Rambam; by remaining coed, they are effectively sealing themselves off from that element of the community, and thereby relinquishing the need to kowtow (or however that's spelled) to it. Going seperate probably has just as many pitfalls in the opposite direction.
By the way, I know this is way, way above your head, but it's best to link directly to the post you are referring to, so, for example, if you wanted to link to the followup post on Rambam, you would use: http://presence.baltiblogs.com/2006/01/04/follow_up_on_yeshivat_rambam.html . That way you are directly referncing my post. This is what is referred to as a permalink, and using them correctly helps build a better Internet. Sorry to come down so hard on you on this stuff, I know putting a link up regardless was probably a fair bit of work.
But back to school stuff, I'm still struggling with the issue, so I like hearing different view points (other than those related to carpool). My issues with coed stem from personal experience, and less from religious stigma; I still feel that having intermingling as a function of the school is off base. There's nothing wrong with the school in the right circumstances, and I'd be proud to wrestle with just about any of their students, even after corned beef; I just can't, right now, figure out where the priority should lie.
My guess (hope?) is that by the time my boy gets to middle school, the decision will be obvious.
Posted by: Greg at January 5, 2006 11:22 PMIt's interesting because I think comments like that might actually prove instructive to Rambam; by remaining coed, they are effectively sealing themselves off from that element of the community
I don't agree - that element of the community, despite its self-professed lukewarm support for Israel and its avarice, is diametrically opposed to being able to appreciate positive elements of modernity, and is (hopefully, anyhow) not what Rambam wants.
One might wish for more religious intensity or conviction among the Rambam parent body, but there are definite "lechatchila" ideals at Rambam that would be viewed as undesirable among said communal element, whose only goal is a better education.
(I'm probably not being quite as tactful to the good Mr. Selliger here as I should be, but his stated opinion struck me as being ridiculous.)
- Moishe P.
Posted by: Moishe Potemkin at January 6, 2006 08:11 AM"that element of the community, despite its self-professed lukewarm support for Israel and its avarice, is diametrically opposed to being able to appreciate positive elements of modernity, and is (hopefully, anyhow) not what Rambam wants."
That's what I was trying to say.
Posted by: Greg at January 6, 2006 09:16 AMBy the way, I think this is the song you're looking for:
http://www.lyricsdownload.com/inside-out-crazy-lyrics.html
Posted by: Greg at January 6, 2006 10:33 AMYeah, that's it.
Far too ordinary to warrant a remake, I say.
- Moishe P.
Posted by: Moishe Potemnkin at January 6, 2006 11:21 AMAre you telling me that if Rambam were to segregate, that would be viewed negatively?
I have yet to hear a reasonable argument articulating the benefits of co-education. Calling my opinion ridiculous, or "not-modern", isn't going to cut it. I'm approaching the issue from both personal experience and with halachik sources.
I want to hear the other side of the story, because I simply can not assimilate the idea that this is a preferred method of religious education. I know what I've been taught, and what I've seen with my own eyes. Moishe, I'm sorry to disappoint you, but this is not a new idea promulgated by 20th century North American chasidim and hastily adopted by religiously insecure Litvacks. On the contrary, Rambam (and pals) are the newcomers...and aleichem l'havi raya. Forget the ad hominem, please answer the question.
COMMENT TO EARLIER POST only because someone should and not because i necessarily believe: this whole story is a non-issue in israel. and, so, to those jews who really are offended by the fact that they live in a country with a christian majority (note my care not to call this a christian country), israel is still an option...
Posted by: SuburbanInternational at January 9, 2006 03:36 PMand just one more comment: if this post is to the entire blogsphere (why the extra O?), then where does that put me? at the edge of the blogoverse (is there an edge?)? or if potemkin doesn't mention, existence is an illusion?
Posted by: SuburbanInternational at January 9, 2006 03:38 PMHerewith my response to the good Mr. Selliger's inquiry.
Q: Are you telling me that if Rambam were to segregate, that would be viewed negatively?
A: If Rambam were to adopt the yeshivishe idea that any and all social advances made over the last 2,000 years, including, for example, the acceptance of the once-shocking idea that women's intellects are not innately inferior, are to be dismissed simply because they represent a change from the Tannaic and Amoraic mindset, then, to my mind, that would be viewed negatively.
As far as the alleged advantages of coeducation - I suspect I'm going to disappoint you there as well. I'm willing to concede that there are educational disadvantages to coeducation, at least once them hormones come a-ragin'. But I do not share your view that this is some sort of religious imperative, or that teenyagers engaging in the timeless, idiotic ritual of giggling flirtation somehow represent some sort of spiritual destruction.
Posted by: Moishe Potemkin at January 9, 2006 08:41 PMTo Emerald (Get it? Get it? I slay myself sometimes) -
I was planning on being even more widely obnoxious, but I tired too quickly, thank goodness.
Am I wrong to be more surprised that there isn't a massive rally around Scharansky? The hero factor was huge for Sharon (and Mofaz et al simply don't have it, fairly or not), and I can't think of anyone else whose story gets him the credibility needed to move forward appropriately. (This, of course, reflects my belief that if Bush and Rice sat him down for a couple of hours, and let him see why "things look(ed) different from here," he would support Sharon's strategy.)
- Moishe P.
Posted by: Moishe Potemnkin at January 10, 2006 08:22 AM2 last points:
1) Impressive that I can't even spell my own name, isn't it?
2) I'd always heard it referred to as the "blogOsphere." Has a better meter, to my ear.
Posted by: Moishe Potemkin at January 10, 2006 08:25 AM